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Forum:Wikia's new skin
In case you don't know, Wikia has created a new skin for all wikis, called Wikia, which changes dramatically the viewing experience. For now, it can be activated in each users's preferences page, but from November it will be mandatory for every wiki in Wikia. This new skin has some nice changes, and some very controversial changes (such as defining a fixed width for every article, which can really mess up the flow). The changes are so significant that several wikis, including the Dragon Ball Wiki and the World of Warcraft Wiki are seriously considering moving out of Wikia and into new web hosts (in fact, there is already an Anti-Wikia (skin) Alliance). Given these facts, I encourage you to turn on the skin and try to find out if it does affect our wiki as much as it affects others (a lot of pages in the Dragon Ball Wiki are seriously messed up by this skin, for example). So far, even though I do not like several of the most prominent features of the skin, I haven't noticed a significant impact in the contents of the Editable Codex, though some articles do look a little worse. So, if everyone could start checking this out, it would be a great way to prepare for when the change comes, and to see if we have to rework the articles in order to fit the new skin (or maybe even leave Wikia if we see the need to, in the worst case).--Sega381 04:10, October 7, 2010 (UTC) How we feel about this Sign your name under the appropriate heading. I am going to leave Wikia even if the community decides to stay I would prefer to continue our wiki elsewhere, but I will yield to the community's decision * Sega381 * Tribun 17:47, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * Dungy 17:20, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * Sergorn 17:42, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * -- Fenyx4 19:18, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I would prefer to stay here and work through the changes, but I will yield to the community's decision * Warder Dragon 20:14, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I am going to stay here even if the community decides to leave Where to go if we do leave? ShoutWiki Ultima Aeira codex.ultimaaeira.com * -- Fenyx4 20:29, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * --Tribun 20:33, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * --Sergorn 20:36, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * Dungy 22:11, October 7, 2010 (UTC) * --Sega381 02:18, October 8, 2010 (UTC) www.ultimaaeira.com/codex Wikkii Referata Discussion :Well, my initial reaction is "Bleh". I'll try it for awhile and see if it grows on me. -- Fenyx4 05:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Wow, it's certainly going to take some getting used to. It looks "nice," if a little cramped. It appears they want to get away from resembling Wikipedia as much as possible. I guess like any big change I'll eventually acclimatise to it, and as long as it doesn't seriously mess up our content, I think it would be going a little overboard to shift locations because of a cosmetic change. --Terilem 05:36, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Oh my, that is indeed terrible. It completely destroys our sidebars, and jams them horizontally onto the top. That means we'll completely have to get rid of out nav bar. Also, now they're putting big blank spaces on each side that serve no other purpose than to reduce viewing space. Worst of all, on the right I'm stuck with all my stuff like "Pages you're currently working on" and "contributions" that takes up half the space. All of the information is now jammed into a horizontal area less than half the width of my screen. Geesh, and if you accidently mouse over one of their advertisements on the top of the screen, the advertisement that pops up is a third of the screen. Ech. Dungy 11:25, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yep, it certainly is cramped. After being used to the current layout spread luxuriously over the width of a widescreen monitor, it's a hell of a space constraint. --Terilem 11:30, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::I find changes like this by a web-host are always a slippery slope. I remember Geocities. Their advertisements got larger and more offensive until the point where nobody could deal with it any longer, and then the company went out of business. Dungy 12:01, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::: :I tested it, and it looks horrible. I wonder who the moron is who hatched this POS. I'm seriously think of retiring from working on the Codex, since this new skin makes it next to impossible for me to work and it's a püain to read things.--Tribun 11:03, October 7, 2010 (UTC) Just a preview of what to expect: Dungy 12:01, October 7, 2010 (UTC) This does it. The two biggest fuck-ups are the fat sidebar, and putting it on the wrong side of the screen. If they enforce it, I take my leave since it then would be a chore for me to read anything here.--Tribun 12:05, October 7, 2010 (UTC) Hrm I see what you mean, Dungy. The left-right reversal I could certainly live with since it's rather inconsequential, but the fixed page width and enlarged sidebar combined are really doing a number on that article layout. I fear this skin is a result of what's currently fashionable in website design at large. It's more suited for blogs than it is for a wiki. --Terilem 12:24, October 7, 2010 (UTC) We should ask Fenyx4 to make a mirror at ShoutWiki. If this really happens, it would save us the hassle of having our content being bombed to kingdom come.--Tribun 12:30, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :I agree with the fact that the narrow fixed area and the fat sidebar are the worst changes. Almost all the other changes are just that, changes, and we could eventually find them useful, or at least live with them (although I said ALMOST all the other changes). But the waste of space purpotedly to allow Wikia be seen the same way in all screen sizes... it's a major mistake. :And btw, the worst part is that, even with dozens of wikis considering leaving, and hundreds of users protesting, the staff has insisted that they will not change their minds, ever.--Sega381 13:00, October 7, 2010 (UTC) I've got to agree with Tribun here. Now, I don't know or understand the intricacies of moving a wiki, but if it is possible without substantial work, then I'd think about it. This new change shrinks the useable space to less than 50% the width of the page, from the current maybe 80%. Even if we could get rid of the giant sidebar, I'd be willing to think about it, since that sidebar uses up nearly half of the available room and supplies absolutely nothing useful. Who cares what was most recently added to our page? Surely our users don't need to know that I added a new image 23 seconds ago. Why would they care? This is a wiki, an information source, it is NOT a social site. Dungy 13:02, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Moving it seems to be not much of a problem, according to this: ::Q: How do I move my Wiki to a new host? ::A: You will have to download a database dump from Special:Statistics on your wiki (towards the bottom.) Then, contact the new host and they will tell you what way they want you to upload to them (you can usually use Special:Import). If moving to ShoutWiki, you will have to either email them at technical@shoutwiki.com with the link to your wiki and the link to the new wiki or file a bug report at BugZilla.shoutwiki under imports with the same links. ::--Tribun 13:08, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, but what about all the templates and everything. If they all needed to be revamped, that could be a lot of work, and I'm not the one who could do it. Dungy 13:09, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::Ug, totally agree with everything people are saying. The fixed width is just terrible by itself. Then they cram nigh useless information on the right taking up a large portion of that space. But even worse if you do shrink the window below the fixed width you don't get a scroll bar. ::::The above I doubt if we could manually fix. Other issues we might be able to fix are the pencil edit images the have on the sections which are on the left now. Images in an article having editor's names under them for some strange reason... Ug. ::::If this goes through we could certainly look into moving to another wiki host. I've glanced at Shoutwiki and it seems to have all the extensions we'd need. Another option would be just getting a domain name and running a wiki server of our own or asking if, say, Ultima Aiera would like to host it. -- Fenyx4 13:44, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::Exactly, WHO CARES who uploaded that individual image? I KNOW the casual visitor doesn't care if Dungy, or Tribun, or Fenyx, or whoever else uploaded that particular image, heck, the only person who SHOULD care are the editors, and I don't care a lick who it was as long as it's good. Dungy 15:16, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::I briefly looked at shoutwiki. It's clean, neat, and its advertisement space is inoffensive. Just one bar on the right hand side, and that's no more than 100 pixels wide. I would be happy to move there. As for talking to Ultima Aiera, I would be interested in that option too. As it currently stands, if the proposed changes get pushed through, I'm 100% behind moving. Dungy 13:58, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::I agree as well. We however should first try to keep it in the fandom by asking Aiera. If they can't help, we should go to ShoutWiki. I think this maybe could also give us the freedom to make the page look more Codex-like.--Tribun 14:06, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I'll drop Ultima Aiera a note telling him of our consideration and seeing what he thinks. ::::::With ShoutWiki we would have the same problems we have now of me constantly saying "Sorry, I can't do that with Wikia." for things like adding new extensions or modifying "$wg-" variables. ::::::Referata and Wikkii have advanced hosting features which would appear to provide just as much freedom as self-hosting or using Ultima Aiera would. ::::::It won't be all peaches and cream though. I still won't be able to fix the ifexists redlink concerns. And facing me saying "I don't have time" instead of "Wikia won't let me." :) -- Fenyx4 14:31, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::BTW, I encourage everyone to look at the Anti-Wikia alliance (link above) and to browse discussions on moving on other wikis. Some interesting ideas, possible new web hosts, or moving wiki-buddies may be found.--Sega381 16:17, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::The cool part about Aiera would be we could link to direct downloads of fan patches and stuff. Still, that would be a big commitment for WTF, and I could certainly see why he would not be interested in that. Dungy 16:21, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Knowing WTF_Dragon, I'm pretty sure he would actually be very excited to host the Wiki at Aiera. I do feel this is a great idea actually and could help really create a central place for the fan community -- 17:30, October 7, 2010 (UTC) <= that was me --Sergorn 20:36, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::I have added a section at the beginning of the forum in order to use a voting scheme that other wikis have been using so far in order to decide what to do. I think we should decide as a whole what to do, and though the discussion goes in that way, the best way to see the final decisions is the voting section above. So, if you agree with that, I think it would be best if each of us signed in the section according to our positions. We may end up all signing in the same section (according to how the discussion has been going), but at least we will let other users, who may have not joined the discussion yet, clearly state their position.--Sega381 16:31, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :If anyone wants to see it, there is a blog post here trying to explain the rationale behind the most dramatic changes. It does explain some of the reasons of why they are doing these changes, but it's not very convincing (for me at least, though they are logical), and it does not address the main problems (such as wasted space), it only points out the benefits. It also ignores the subtler motives, such as better ad placement, and more inter-wiki traffic. But I guess that is the best response we'll have. I--Sega381 18:44, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::WTF_Dragon of Ultima Aiera's response to my message would be best described as ecstatic. He'd love to host the wiki even going so far to say he'd start setting it up today. As 77.192.70.3 said he feels it would be a great to help centralize the Ultima community. His only question is do we want it installed as a subdomain or sub-folder (http://codex.ultimaaiera.com? http://www.ultimaaiera.com/codex?) ::I've added another voter thingy at the top for where we want to go if we decided to go. (A vote in either of the Aeira subsections is a cote for Aeira as a while). This does not mean a decision has been made yet! Please keep voting on how you feel about leaving! Things are just moving quick and I'd like to plan ahead to make the transition as smooth as possible. -- Fenyx4 20:29, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::OK, so if we do decide to move, what should be done with this current site? How would we direct people to our new location, and how would we prevent competing Wikis? I mean, would we go straight up vandalism and have Fenyxbot mark every page with a link to our new location? Also, if we moved to Aiera, what differences would we notice from our current site? and what about the stability issues Aiera has had? I mean, I can't access it right now. Dungy 21:28, October 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Any high-traffic site not running on a dedicated server will have stability issues occasionally. Aiera has been getting a lot of traffic of late; I may at this moment be suffering a spike in traffic from Reddit (not 100% sure). At any rate, if the wiki did make the jump, I'd probably look at expanding my hosting package with my current provider to give me something a little more robust and traffic-tolerant. There are five or six sites that I am running concurrently, so I could either move to more robust hosting or else move the other sites to a second hosting account and leave Aiera on an account dedicated solely to it. - WtFD ::::I'm also worried what this will cost you, since I know hosting like this is not free. I'll admit, I have no idea how much bandwidth and what not this wiki uses, but I imagine our cost amounts are orders of magnitude less than the numbers I've seen thrown around on the Wowwiki. I'm looking to move, I just want to know a few more facts before I throw my hat in a new home ring. Dungy 21:46, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::I won't lie: Aiera isn't free ''to run, and it's not particularly cheap to maintain. I am hosted with Mediatemple, which costs about $200/year (plus the domain name, of course). Adding the wiki as a subdomain would be free, of course, so no worries there, and I pay the $200/year hosting cost myself. (Although, because of a couple of other sites I host, I get a tax receipt for some of it.) ::::''Technically, my costs don't have to go up. I'd be inclined to move Aiera to a distinct server if the wiki came on board, but I don't have to (strictly speaking). If I did, that's another $200/year, although the domain name costs remain the same. Not like I'd ever charge the community directly; there are donation links on Aiera's articles, and those would remain in place, and I would welcome any support donations the community did make. But if you're worried what the cost to you would be, in the sense of what I'd charge you...the answer is "nothing, unless you feel like chipping in of your own free will." ::::Hence my italicizing of "to run" at the outset of this reply; it isn't free to run, but it is free to use. ::::Oh, and this outage has been...I see from my host's support page that the server has been under "high load" all day. So I'm not the sole cause of the problem (yay), although my posting of sixteen pictures of maps from the original Serpent Isle concept's development probably didn't do anything to keep traffic levels DOWN. :::::I think you slightly misinterpreted my last post. I'm honestly concerned about the negative impact this would have on your wallet, but if that's not an issue with you, I'm all for moving in, since I've found in the conversations I've had with you, that you're a level-headed, mature individual who is genuinely enthusiastic about supporting the Ultima community. Dungy 22:11, October 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Just to warn people moving does have some other problems. Not all the extensions will come with. Wikia's Rich Text Editor won't be able to come. This doesn't bother me because I don't use it but I know some people do. There are others out there so we should be able to find something though. (In fact I think Wikia's is based in fckeditor.) -- Fenyx4 What Happens Here? Dungy brought up an excellent point. What would we do with this wiki after moving? I think I'm happiest with leaving a message on the top of each page letting people know the community had moved with a link to the new wiki but leave the content. But I certainly could also protect all the pages or even delete everything. I don't view it as vandalism if everyone is leaving. If someone decides to remain though it is completely up to them. The wiki will be in their hands. I really hope that isn't the case though. If we move I hope no one will be left behind. -- Fenyx4 03:13, October 8, 2010 (UTC) : I've been researching that topic. It seems when previous wikis have left, they have left links to their new site, and Wikia has subsequently come along and erased them. So what you suggested may not be an option, but we're a small wiki, and they might not notice us as quickly. Personally, I would vouch for changing every page to a link to our new wiki, and then locking them all. If someone does choose to stay behind, I suppose that is their right, and we should then leave the information intact. I REALLY do not want to have competing wikis, though. Dungy 03:31, October 8, 2010 (UTC)